50% Survival with Vitrification Process?


#1

Hi Ladies.
Had my first FET last Thursday and am waiting through the 2WW with many of you. But I have some questions about the survival rate of my embryos.

Going into the FET I had 6 blasts frozen with the newer vitrification method, graded D (best) - A. 1-D, 1-C, 2-B, 2-A.

Neither the D nor the C made it and we transferred the two Bs. That’s only a 50% survival rate. The clinic tried to play it off like it wasn’t a big deal so I wouldn’t get bent out of shape but isn’t that a terrible survival rate? Google says I should have expected something in the 90s and they tried to tell me that maybe 60-70% was the norm.

Either way it’s low and I"m concerned about the quality of the embies. Do you guys have any thoughts or encouragement?


#2

That is low for vitrification. I had two fet’s earlier this year and my blasts were frozen slowly and they all made the thaw (6 total). I wouldn’t get too hung up on since the blasts that you lost were graded so poor it is possible that they were dying when they were vitrified.


#3

I do think that’s low. Like you, I’ve generally seen stats more like 85-90% survival. I think my clinic quoted 80-85% and I thought that was low. I only thawed one for my FET, and we only lost two cells. The 50% seems low even for the old freezing technique.

I wonder more about their freeze/thaw technique than your embryo quality, though. It seems odd that you’d lose your two best ones, though I know things like that do happen.

I hope this FET worked for you and you don’t have to worry about it! :cross:


#4

oops - I thought you lost your two worst. I agree with the PP…weird that you lost your best.


#5

I had 2 6 day blasts graded 4BB and neither of mine survived the thaw. I still have yet to get answers! I had them frozen at one clinic and transferred to another clinic. Maybe when I go back, I’ll get some answers but I have a feelin I’ll never know :frowning:


#6

That is STRANGE and a very low rate for vitrification. My clinic’s thaw rate is I think between 96-98 % with vitrification. I had three frosties and all three survived for my FET cycle. I would DEFINITELY be looking for answers if I were you. One would think that the better quality embies would have had the better shot to survive the thaw. In any event…GL to you and :cross: !!


#7

It depends on how they define survival. The more stringent the definition, the lower the survival rate will be. In your case, all three of your thawed embryos survived, but you only had a biochemical pregnancy. Perhaps another clinic would not have assessed them all as surviving?

In the OP, the patient had a 50% survival rate. That means the clinic rejected 50% of the thawed embryos. This may mean they did something wrong in the freezing and thawing, or they are doing something right in the assessment after thaw. Can’t really tell from the available information.


#8

[QUOTE=Ghost]It depends on how they define survival. The more stringent the definition, the lower the survival rate will be. In your case, all three of your thawed embryos survived, but you only had a biochemical pregnancy. Perhaps another clinic would not have assessed them all as surviving?

In the OP, the patient had a 50% survival rate. That means the clinic rejected 50% of the thawed embryos. This may mean they did something wrong in the freezing and thawing, or they are doing something right in the assessment after thaw. Can’t really tell from the available information.[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, clinics define survival as surviving the thaw and that’s my definition too not whether or not an embie put back results in a take home baby. I did get a BFP so…yes…they survived!! One was even hatching after the thaw. Chromosomal abnormalities are a different story alltogether. I can’t imagine any clinic defining embies that survive the thaw as NOT surviving. Makes no sense to me.


#9

Good luck

Just looked back at your signature and things are going well. How many follies did you have this cycle and how many embryos? I didn’t see it on your signature. You are obviuosly not a low responder if you have some to freeze. So excited for you. Wnat to keep following you.


#10

[QUOTE=marcycantrell]Just looked back at your signature and things are going well. How many follies did you have this cycle and how many embryos? I didn’t see it on your signature. You are obviuosly not a low responder if you have some to freeze. So excited for you. Wnat to keep following you.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your well wishes. I’m VERY nervous. The trick at my age is finding a normal embryo…so…we shall see :cross:

I do respond very well to stims and have been very lucky in that regard. This cycle I actually had the lowest amount of embryos retrieved for me which could be because I lost about 1/3rd of my trigger shot although my RE says that would have no effect, or because I used HGH this go-round or because I simply am older and some of the follies seen just were not mature this go-round. Who knows but this cycle I had about 12 or 13 follies at trigger time that were of decent size. 8 were retrieved, 7 mature, 7 fertilized. All 7 made it to day 5 and I put back 5 early blasts on Day 5. No frosties this cycle. The other two embies did not make the cut. My previous cycles I had 13 and 10 embies respectively. One frostie the first cycle, and two the second cycle.

GL to you as well!! :cross:


#11

You are correct that a take home baby is not the definition of survival.

However, the assessment of survival is a judgment call, and two clinics, or two embryologists might differ.

A recent publication on vitrified and warmed embryos found 100% survival in the assessment right after thaw. Then they looked them a little later and 36% of them were arrested. So it depends on how long you wait after thaw.


#12

[QUOTE=Ghost]You are correct that a take home baby is not the definition of survival.

However, the assessment of survival is a judgment call, and two clinics, or two embryologists might differ.

A recent publication on vitrified and warmed embryos found 100% survival in the assessment right after thaw. Then they looked them a little later and 36% of them were arrested. So it depends on how long you wait after thaw.[/QUOTE]

Ghost, isn’t 50% of cells surviving usually the cutoff? Or is that more for day 3? I’m a loon and read fertstert for kicks, and that seems to be the viability definition used most often.


#13

[QUOTE=Ghost]You are correct that a take home baby is not the definition of survival.

However, the assessment of survival is a judgment call, and two clinics, or two embryologists might differ.

A recent publication on vitrified and warmed embryos found 100% survival in the assessment right after thaw. Then they looked them a little later and 36% of them were arrested. So it depends on how long you wait after thaw.[/QUOTE]

Quite obviously no clinic worth their salt would consider an arrested embryo to have “survived” the thaw and then put said arrested embryo back inside of a patient!! Certainly not mine. Do you know of any? Most embryos thaw out…it’s what the look like and how they perform after the thaw that counts. The point is that you can’t say that because an embryo did not implant or did implant but resulted in a chemical, that somehow the embryologist made a poor assessment as to whether or not that embie “survived.” We see top graded embies put back day in and day out that do not implant or result in chemicals. Does that mean that the embryologists that make these assessments are wrong too? You also leave out the simple fact that grading alone and/or what an embie looks like does not tell us whether an embie is normal or abnormal. A frostie might not make it simply because it is abnormal. Nothing at all to do with whether an embryologist made the proper determination as to "survival

The bottom line here is that after vitrificatiopn, the OP lost 50 percent of her embies. THAT is simply unacceptable and far below the stats of most clinics that vitrify. Now…we can try to surmise that somehow the OP’s clinic is doing things better than all the rest with survival rates in the 90th percentile…but somehow…I doubt that. Moreover, there is no basis for that belief.


#14

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. I’m interested to see where this thread goes now.

I obviously don’t have any new updates yet but I did talk to my RE (the one on transfer day was different). He seemed pretty frustrated/concerned that another RE would question the quality of my embryos particularly in the minutes before my transfer. He assured me that he wouldn’t have frozen the two A’s that remain if he didn’t think they were good embryos and would never recommend not using them if we didn’t get results this time. He of course wanted to make sure that we are focused on getting through the week with positive results and really only wants to discuss what might have happened once we get through this early period.

For now we’re looking forward to a :bfp: on Monday and not thinking beyond that. We’ll let tomorrow worry about itself.

Once we know the outcome, we’ll have a follow up with my RE to discuss all of the details of the situation.


#15

Yes, several hundred. Most clinics do exactly that.

They thaw an embryo and quickly decide if they will call it “survived”. Transfer is shortly after that.
The embryo may be arrested. They don’t know and they cannot tell in a brief glance through a microscope.

Survival assessment is not nearly as meaningful as you’ve been lead to believe. It’s far more complicated than that.


#16

50% is one criterion, but keep in mind, there are a hundred or so cells in a blastocyst, and they cannot count them all and assess each one. They just make an eyeball guess if it looks like 50% or more (or whatever that clinic’s criteria may me).