EA or double donors? x-post


#1

I wasn’t sure where to post this, so will probably cross post in the EA thread as well.

We are currently in the 2ww with anonymously donated embryos. Our previous experience was via an open arrangement. That experience made me realize that openness was not for me, in spite of years of trying to insist on it with the various situations we pursued.

My faith tells me that human life begins at conception, and I do believe that the creation of human life must be taken seriously, and its dignity respected by the way we treat it from the get-go.

Having said that, I have been struggling with the idea of using the term “child” to refer to my embryos. I’m reminded of the verse in the Bible where God forms us in our mother’s womb… and I’m thinking that if these embryos are destined to walk the earth, God will make them into my children. Otherwise, He will make them into His angels.

Between this and the discomfort I feel over the idea of referring to the embryos’ donors as “parents” (even with a qualifier like “genetic” in front of it), I’m wondering if I can’t borrow terminology and/or thought processes from those using double gamete donors.

I do not deny that our embryos’ donors are indeed their genetic ancestors, and I have no problem acknowledging their heritage and celebrating it in that regard. It’s when it comes to words like “parents” that I get defensive.

How are you thinking of your EA / double gamete donors?


#2

I think you are over thinking. Donor plain and simple is how your refer to them. The definition of a parent is to nurture, raise, bring up, mother, father. None of these definitions refer to a parent being the genetic starter. Your body is going to grow this baby and even if it was straight adoption you and your dh are raising the baby. You are the parent they are the DONORS. :cross: For a BFP. Relax that baby is yours and your dhs and you will be his/her only parents.


#3

Egghunter- In an adoption situation though, you would NOT refer to the birthparents/birthfamily as “Donors”. That would be incredibly offensive to the birthparents. So it isn’t really the same thing as this situation.

I guess I haven’t talked about it much at all yet, but I have always just referred to them as…“donors” or “the donors” in some way. like, I was talking to my DH the other night and said…I cant wait to see what the babies look like. According to their Donors’ characteristics, they should have…xyz…
now, since our embryos were from a double donor cycle, its probably easier to call them that. If I were in an open situation with more of an Embryo Adoption feel, I would call them their “Genetic Family.” because that is what they are. I have used the term “genetic parents” also. ( I know that’s the term you don’t like to use)

I have learned over the course of the past few years after our adoption that if you get TOO bent out of shape about what everyone in the situation is called, you will spend a lot of your time being upset!! EVERYONE seems to say something stupid at some point and I just let it roll off my back these days. Especially when it comes to our son. Ive heard it all…It used to bother me, but now, I don’t even care.
Im sure it wont be exactly the same with these babies, because I am technically their “bio” mom, just not their genetic mom. so there are some interesting issues here, but I think for the most part…just stick with “donors” and you will be fine.


#4

Thanks for the feedback! I guess the counter argument I’ve heard to using the term donors is the same as using the term embryo donation (vs adoption). The idea that a person can be donated like property (which, of course, according to the law, embryos ARE property)… how would that make a child feel to have been donated like we donate unwanted clothes to Goodwill?

And yes, I know I’m overthinking it. It’s sort of my thing; it’s what I do :nerd: That’s why I’m glad to go through that process here online, so that my IRL people don’t have to put up with it as much!


#5

I guess when I talk about it I do use the term Embryo Adoption more than I do embryo donation. And probably because you are right, it does sound slightly “off” Adoption SOUNDS better. Technically, we didn’t “Adopt” the embryos in the typical adoption scenario, but the donors donated them and we “adopted” them, so I guess you could use either term…


#6

[QUOTE=rd200]Egghunter- In an adoption situation though, you would NOT refer to the birthparents/birthfamily as “Donors”. That would be incredibly offensive to the birthparents. So it isn’t really the same thing as this situation.

I guess I haven’t talked about it much at all yet, but I have always just referred to them as…“donors” or “the donors” in some way. like, I was talking to my DH the other night and said…I cant wait to see what the babies look like. According to their Donors’ characteristics, they should have…xyz…
now, since our embryos were from a double donor cycle, its probably easier to call them that. If I were in an open situation with more of an Embryo Adoption feel, I would call them their “Genetic Family.” because that is what they are. I have used the term “genetic parents” also. ( I know that’s the term you don’t like to use)

I have learned over the course of the past few years after our adoption that if you get TOO bent out of shape about what everyone in the situation is called, you will spend a lot of your time being upset!! EVERYONE seems to say something stupid at some point and I just let it roll off my back these days. Especially when it comes to our son. Ive heard it all…It used to bother me, but now, I don’t even care.
Im sure it wont be exactly the same with these babies, because I am technically their “bio” mom, just not their genetic mom. so there are some interesting issues here, but I think for the most part…just stick with “donors” and you will be fine.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t mean to refer to the birth parents as donors, just that even if they were adopting they still are the parents. We actually have two adopted children from the same birth mom. We definitely use birth mom or her name, but egg donor and embryo adoption is totally different and they shouldn’t receive the same deference. Our birth mom carried our babies, nurtured them, held them, birthed them. Our donors while I am eternally grateful are donors and did not make the same sacrifice to earn the word parent; not even gentic parent IMO. I’m sorry if that was confusing, I just meant even if you don’t give birth you would still be the parent. I guess I needed better periods and spacing. I guess I was trying to answer this question and past posts in one explanation of over thinking it.


#7

:slight_smile: [quote=Egghunter]I didn’t mean to refer to the birth parents as donors, just that even if they were adopting they still are the parents. We actually have two adopted children from the same birth mom. We definitely use birth mom or her name, but egg donor and embryo adoption is totally different and they shouldn’t receive the same deference. Our birth mom carried our babies, nurtured them, held them, birthed them. Our donors while I am eternally grateful are donors and did not make the same sacrifice to earn the word parent; not even gentic parent IMO. I’m sorry if that was confusing, I just meant even if you don’t give birth you would still be the parent. I guess I needed better periods and spacing. I guess I was trying to answer this question and past posts in one explanation of over thinking it.[/quote]

thanks for the clarification on that!! :slight_smile:


#8

Thank you both. I don’t want to suggest that the donors made their decision flippantly, either. I know several women online who have agonized over letting their embryos go to another family. I liken it to what a birth mother must go through if she first finds out about her pregnancy and is choosing between abortion and adoption.

I know I’m being selfish in this. I shouldn’t even worry about it. I already chose an anonymous donation, so what more do I want, right? :nerd:


#9

[quote=anilorak13ska]Thanks for the feedback! I guess the counter argument I’ve heard to using the term donors is the same as using the term embryo donation (vs adoption). The idea that a person can be donated like property (which, of course, according to the law, embryos ARE property)… how would that make a child feel to have been donated like we donate unwanted clothes to Goodwill?

And yes, I know I’m overthinking it. It’s sort of my thing; it’s what I do :nerd: That’s why I’m glad to go through that process here online, so that my IRL people don’t have to put up with it as much![/quote]
The child wasn’t donated. The child wasn’t a child–he or she was just an embryo with the potential to become EITHER a child or, as you said, an angel. What the donors donated was possibility, a chance at life.

I think the seeds/plant analogy is probably helpful here, and if you involve kids in any gardening (including planting a seed in a pot for the window), it’s very easy for them to understand too. If someone donates a rose seed to you, what was donated was NOT a rosebush, but a seed that, with proper care and healthy ground and time and sun and water, could become a rosebush (or not–not every seed grows). So in other words, what was donated was the possibility for a rosebush to exist and for you to have a rosebush. If you wanted a rosebush, you needed the seed–and you didn’t have any seeds, so some kind person gave you some. But you still didn’t have any rosebushes. You needed the seeds to have a POSSIBILITY of growing rosebushes in your yard, but you also needed to make a good place for them to grow, plant them, tend them, nourish them, and wait.

If you want to clearly distinguish it from the Goodwill clothes scenario you were talking about, then look at it this way: what was donated wasn’t a cotton sweater that someone else didn’t want anymore, but some cotton seeds that you could plant. With time and love and care, you would have the possibility of cotton plants, and from that, the possibility of picking the cotton, spinning it into thread and knitting a cotton sweater.

So the Goodwill analogy is really not a good analogy at all.


#10

Trixicat, thanks for your feedback and analogy. As I was reading it, I realized where my dilemma lies, and it’s all about when human life begins. My faith teaches that life begins at conception, since that seed will either grow or not, but if it does, it will not be any other species but a human being. Growth does not change a thing into a different thing. I do believe that God creates our souls at the moment of conception, and therefore, it is wrong to take that life once it has begun.

Yet I am trying to have my cake and eat it too. (Although that is a dumb saying, if you ask me. Why would I want the cake if I didn’t want to eat it?! lol)
I guess the baby-or-angel idea is my way of doing that. Because there is already life there, it is wrong to take it. However, it is not yet known what kind of life it will be. This is quite different from the plant seed analogy, which is of course based in science and can only grow to be one thing, not one of two options.

Anyway, thank you for helping me realize that the reason I’m having trouble is because I’m trying to operate simultaneously in two seemingly opposing frameworks.


#11

I too believe you are overthinking this, but I think you could really resolve most of these issues by returning to an embryo adoption agency, and letting them know about your desired level of contact with the genetic family.

The Snowflake Embryo adoption program works with people who want lots of contact AND those who only desire to have contact with one another through the agency. The genetic family is reffered to as just that: the genetic family, not the parents or the genetic parents. The parents are the adopting family. Many genetic families want to know that if a child was born, that it is safe, they chose the recipients, but that is the extent of the information they wish to have. They are busy with piano lessons, and soccer games with their own children. They simply want to provide the embryos they created with love - and for the purpose of bringing joy to a family, with the chance to become what they were created for.

Embryo Adoption Agencies exist because the individuals receiving and donating embryos inherantly understand the similarity to “adoption”. The the end result is a child (hopefully) - a child who will have parents to whom they are not genetically related to. The donors donate to agencies because they desire that the process be enveloped in the protections of an adoption, they do understand it is not simply a donation. Many embryo adoptive families also come to agencies because they understand that this IS more than simply a medical procedure, and they desire that the procedure be handled in the same manner as an adoption. They want their children to understand the beauty of adoption.

You referred to the Bible verse which talks about the child being developed in the womb, it is Psalm 139:13. Here is another one - if you are a person of faith it may hold meaning. The Bible purposefully compares the redemption process to adoption.
[LEFT]•[FONT=Calibri]But when the fullness of the time hadcome, God sent forth His Son[/FONT][FONT=Calibri]toredeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons[/FONT][FONT=Calibri][I]Galatians 4:4a-5 (NKJV)[/I][/FONT][/LEFT]

[LEFT][FONT=Calibri][I]Adoption is the picture used in Scripture because it represents the process that one can be grafted into another family, as sons and daughters and parents. This is what takes place in an embryo adoption.[/I][/FONT][/LEFT]


#12

Ooops! I didn’t realize I had posted that! Please forgive the grammatical errors. There are quite a few. I had walked away to attend to another task thinking that I would edit and post on my return. Oh well - Not worth bugging the admin.


#13

I totally agree! Originally that saying was about “wanting to eat your cake and still have it.” That’s what they say in the UK. That version makes a lot more sense!

[quote=anilorak13ska]
My faith teaches that life begins at conception, since that seed will either grow or not, but if it does, it will not be any other species but a human being. Growth does not change a thing into a different thing… Because there is already life there, it is wrong to take it. However, it is not yet known what kind of life it will be. This is quite different from the plant seed analogy, which is of course based in science and can only grow to be one thing, not one of two options. [/quote]

I don’t actually see them as different in this analogy, since the options are the same for both: they will either grow or die. If the rose seed grows, it’ll grow into a rosebush–nothing else. If the embryo grows, it’ll grow into a person–nothing else. They both have the same two possibilities: grow or die. The only difference is what happens after they die.

And we don’t know, and can’t know, which ones will grow and which will die.

So I still see the donation of an embryo as the donation of a possibility of life. Not the donation of a child. It either grows and becomes a child, or dies and becomes an angel–but it’s neither child nor angel when it’s an embryo: it’s a potential child AND a potential angel, and we cannot know which of the two it will become.


#14

I’m new at the thought of a donor. Help me please since y’all seem very knowledgeable about this topic. How does it work? Who pays the donor and meds for the donor?


#15

[B]Snowflake[/B], I am a person of faith, and thanks for the scripture references! To be honest, while I understand that the donors going through an embryo adoption agency may have a different intention or understanding of EA, I simply am not willing to pay the associated fees. I’ve already spent lots of money on our pursuit of traditional adoption, and as long as there’s a way to adopt without all that hoopla (EA via a clinic), that’s where you’ll find me. But I understand the explanation, and I’m glad you mentioned it for anyone considering which way to go.

[B]Trixicat[/B], I like your explanations. I’m still afraid of what I’m being taught officially with regards to life beginning at conception (and I believe that) not exactly meshing with the idea that we can refer to the embryo as anything but an early stage of a child’s development. I mean, a newborn is not a man or a woman - he or she has the potential to grow up to be an adult, but if he or she dies prematurely, will never be a man (or woman). But that doesn’t mean a newborn is not a human being. Does that make sense?

[B]Kzb429[/B] -welcome to the world of EA! What would you like to know? What are you wondering? What brings you to consider EA?


#16

I would like to know who pays the donor, who pays their meds and scan cost? Do you thumb through a book to pick a donor ? I know nothing about this Ed journey. I have poor egg quality/quantity. I had one healthy girl after several m/c. And here I am to try for number 2. I feeling my lucky number is only one miracle. :-).


#17

[QUOTE=Kzb429]I would like to know who pays the donor, who pays their meds and scan cost? Do you thumb through a book to pick a donor ? I know nothing about this Ed journey. I have poor egg quality/quantity. I had one healthy girl after several m/c. And here I am to try for number 2. I feeling my lucky number is only one miracle. :-).[/QUOTE]

Lots of questions, you should check out the DE II thread

http://forums.fertilitycommunity.com/donor-issues-egg-sperm/2020184292-ivf-cycle-de-ii-2377.html

You pay the donor, meds, scans, any associated costs. Most places have available donors and profiles online. I had a sheet of basic information about my doctors available donors and then was sent complete profiles once I lowered it down. Most only show younger pictures, few show adult photos. You can use your doctor’s donor pool or use an outside agency. Using your RE’s donor pool is generally cheaper. You can cycle by yourself or share a cycle with another couple to save money. There is a lot to know. The other link will have more info and I would talk to your doctor to get somewhat acquainted with the process.

Good luck and congrats on your little girl.


#18

[QUOTE=Trixicat]The child wasn’t donated. The child wasn’t a child–he or she was just an embryo with the potential to become EITHER a child or, as you said, an angel. What the donors donated was possibility, a chance at life.

I think the seeds/plant analogy is probably helpful here, and if you involve kids in any gardening (including planting a seed in a pot for the window), it’s very easy for them to understand too. If someone donates a rose seed to you, what was donated was NOT a rosebush, but a seed that, with proper care and healthy ground and time and sun and water, could become a rosebush (or not–not every seed grows). So in other words, what was donated was the possibility for a rosebush to exist and for you to have a rosebush. If you wanted a rosebush, you needed the seed–and you didn’t have any seeds, so some kind person gave you some. But you still didn’t have any rosebushes. You needed the seeds to have a POSSIBILITY of growing rosebushes in your yard, but you also needed to make a good place for them to grow, plant them, tend them, nourish them, and wait.

If you want to clearly distinguish it from the Goodwill clothes scenario you were talking about, then look at it this way: what was donated wasn’t a cotton sweater that someone else didn’t want anymore, but some cotton seeds that you could plant. With time and love and care, you would have the possibility of cotton plants, and from that, the possibility of picking the cotton, spinning it into thread and knitting a cotton sweater.

So the Goodwill analogy is really not a good analogy at all.[/QUOTE]

Great explanation. I like it.